1 00:00:12,740 --> 00:00:10,520 ladies and gentlemen of the jury you 2 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:12,750 have been witness to the unspeakable 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:16,490 horrors of the defendants heinous crimes 4 00:00:23,570 --> 00:00:19,170 you see that's a clip from the new 5 00:00:26,570 --> 00:00:23,580 Netflix movie about Ted Bundy for years 6 00:00:29,419 --> 00:00:26,580 I've carried this guilt but I'm to blame 7 00:00:34,639 --> 00:00:29,429 for everything and yeah we're back to 8 00:00:38,330 --> 00:00:34,649 talking about the nature of evil it's 9 00:00:46,010 --> 00:00:38,340 better nothing material isn't it and you 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:46,020 do it not because I'm drawn to it but 11 00:00:50,810 --> 00:00:48,570 because avoiding it may be missing an 12 00:00:53,660 --> 00:00:50,820 opportunity to more fully understand 13 00:00:56,510 --> 00:00:53,670 what I keep calling this extended 14 00:00:59,330 --> 00:00:56,520 consciousness realm now as it turns out 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:00:59,340 today's guest the very excellent dr. 16 00:01:04,700 --> 00:01:02,730 Brian Hayden has studied this evil if 17 00:01:07,580 --> 00:01:04,710 you will from a whole different 18 00:01:10,789 --> 00:01:07,590 perspective that traces it back to our 19 00:01:13,399 --> 00:01:10,799 earliest recorded history and what he's 20 00:01:17,410 --> 00:01:13,409 discovered may cause you to rethink 21 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:17,420 everything you think you know about evil 22 00:01:22,219 --> 00:01:20,310 Ted Bundy is back in the headlines 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:22,229 they're doing this big movie and 24 00:01:26,510 --> 00:01:24,210 everyone's excited about it right the 25 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:26,520 secret story and Ted Bundy if you really 26 00:01:31,399 --> 00:01:29,250 dig into it satanic worship again and 27 00:01:33,710 --> 00:01:31,409 then he meets other folks who are going 28 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:33,720 yeah you know I'm connected with these 29 00:01:38,899 --> 00:01:37,110 spiritual forces and he is now trying to 30 00:01:42,770 --> 00:01:38,909 make this connection with this 31 00:01:45,530 --> 00:01:42,780 monovalent spiritual I'm buddies buying 32 00:01:48,139 --> 00:01:45,540 into a system that he feels is going to 33 00:01:51,530 --> 00:01:48,149 be able to let him do what he wants to 34 00:01:53,990 --> 00:01:51,540 do and so in that system that conceptual 35 00:01:56,179 --> 00:01:54,000 system is really a product of secret 36 00:01:58,219 --> 00:01:56,189 societies and institutionalized 37 00:02:00,499 --> 00:01:58,229 religions it's not it didn't exist 38 00:02:00,889 --> 00:02:00,509 before that unless there's a reality to 39 00:02:06,830 --> 00:02:00,899 it 40 00:02:09,139 --> 00:02:06,840 of our constructs another self-serving 41 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:09,149 construct of secret societies or is 42 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:11,370 there any reality to it and that is an 43 00:02:13,780 --> 00:02:12,450 open question 44 00:02:16,479 --> 00:02:13,790 stay with 45 00:02:18,620 --> 00:02:16,489 for my conversation with dr. Brian 46 00:02:25,150 --> 00:02:18,630 Hayden 47 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:26,570 [Music] 48 00:02:31,770 --> 00:02:29,590 today we welcome dr. Brian Hayden - 49 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:31,780 skeptic Oh Brian is a member of the 50 00:02:37,050 --> 00:02:34,210 Royal Society of Canada for his 51 00:02:39,780 --> 00:02:37,060 contributions in archaeology and had a 52 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:39,790 distinguished career at Simon Fraser 53 00:02:44,490 --> 00:02:42,130 University during which he authored 54 00:02:46,980 --> 00:02:44,500 several important academic books and 55 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:46,990 many many papers exploring the 56 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:50,250 prehistory of religion ritual and our 57 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:53,170 relationship with the supernatural just 58 00:02:58,440 --> 00:02:56,890 to name a few topics Brian welcome - 59 00:03:00,660 --> 00:02:58,450 skeptic oh and thanks so much for 60 00:03:03,450 --> 00:03:00,670 joining me well thank you it's a 61 00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:03,460 pleasure to be here let's start with the 62 00:03:12,450 --> 00:03:07,300 very basics improve on my intro who is 63 00:03:15,660 --> 00:03:12,460 Brian Hayden well I'm an archaeologist 64 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:15,670 but I've always been trying to find find 65 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:17,310 out what the archaeological remains 66 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:20,890 represent in terms of what people did 67 00:03:29,220 --> 00:03:24,970 how they organize their societies why 68 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:29,230 things changed over time and you know in 69 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:31,450 the later half of my career I guess they 70 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:34,690 got much more interested in in their 71 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:38,050 ritual life and how that fit in with 72 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:40,330 everything else well that's awesome 73 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:42,970 we might add that you know to try to 74 00:03:46,860 --> 00:03:44,890 find out some of these things I've done 75 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:46,870 a fair amount of traveling like in 76 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:48,730 Australia worked with the Australian 77 00:03:54,330 --> 00:03:51,370 Aborigines and then also worked with the 78 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:54,340 Mayan Indians we do what's called ethno 79 00:04:00,180 --> 00:03:57,250 archeology so it's doing ethnography to 80 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:00,190 find out what you know what you can what 81 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:03,010 that reveals for the archaeological 82 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:04,810 remains so I worked with the Mayan 83 00:04:10,140 --> 00:04:07,780 Indians for a number of years and then 84 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:10,150 went to Southeast Asia to studying 85 00:04:15,270 --> 00:04:12,790 feasting and the remains that that might 86 00:04:17,940 --> 00:04:15,280 leave how it fit into society as well 87 00:04:19,979 --> 00:04:17,950 and I've also worked in the anterior 88 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:19,989 British Columbia with the number of 89 00:04:25,409 --> 00:04:23,050 indigenous groups there so it's been an 90 00:04:28,140 --> 00:04:25,419 interesting career interesting indeed 91 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:28,150 it's really is an amazing body of work 92 00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:30,640 so many different points to grab onto it 93 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:32,470 but I thought I would share with people 94 00:04:36,210 --> 00:04:34,690 the path to this interview because I 95 00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:36,220 think that's part of the story at least 96 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:38,200 the story that I wanted to tell in this 97 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:39,330 converse 98 00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:40,890 I originally became interested in your 99 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:43,680 work because I was kind of exploring 100 00:04:51,380 --> 00:04:47,450 this thread of social engineering secret 101 00:04:55,550 --> 00:04:51,390 societies the nature of evil human 102 00:04:57,650 --> 00:04:55,560 compromise as it relates to sexual stuff 103 00:04:59,780 --> 00:04:57,660 that you know the whole pedophilia stuff 104 00:05:03,380 --> 00:04:59,790 and the pizza gate stuff and the pedo 105 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:03,390 Pope stuff which is all real stuff if 106 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:05,610 people care to investigate it a lot of 107 00:05:09,500 --> 00:05:07,650 people don't care to investigate it but 108 00:05:12,140 --> 00:05:09,510 it's really what's happening right now 109 00:05:15,470 --> 00:05:12,150 in our society and it's in the news if 110 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:15,480 you look carefully beyond what is kind 111 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:17,910 of the glossed over part but I don't 112 00:05:21,380 --> 00:05:19,410 want to digress too far because that's 113 00:05:23,180 --> 00:05:21,390 the stuff I was interested in and then I 114 00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:23,190 had a skeptical listener and I love when 115 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:25,590 this happens but this Nate stepped 116 00:05:30,620 --> 00:05:27,810 forward and said hey there's this guy 117 00:05:32,930 --> 00:05:30,630 who's done some amazing academic 118 00:05:35,180 --> 00:05:32,940 research looking at the prehistory of 119 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:35,190 this and he was referring to you dr. 120 00:05:39,770 --> 00:05:37,050 Brian Hayden and he said you know he 121 00:05:41,630 --> 00:05:39,780 he's looked at secret societies going 122 00:05:44,330 --> 00:05:41,640 back to prehistory and this 123 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:44,340 aggrandizement and all this kind of 124 00:05:49,910 --> 00:05:47,130 stuff and I was like hey that sounds 125 00:05:50,710 --> 00:05:49,920 great but I'm a little bit skeptical cuz 126 00:05:54,710 --> 00:05:50,720 I know 127 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:54,720 academics particularly in Canada kind of 128 00:05:59,690 --> 00:05:56,970 a lot of times have to have stay between 129 00:06:01,850 --> 00:05:59,700 some very narrow lines and he was like 130 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:01,860 no and he sent me a quote from your book 131 00:06:07,910 --> 00:06:05,130 very excellent book shamans sorcerers 132 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:07,920 and Saints the prehistory of religion 133 00:06:12,410 --> 00:06:09,780 which he wrote a few years ago and 134 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:12,420 here's the quote from the book that he 135 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:14,610 sent I think that aspiring elites 136 00:06:19,790 --> 00:06:17,010 increasingly such restrict access to 137 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:19,800 ecstatic contact with supernatural 138 00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:22,770 forces in order to claim privileged 139 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:26,160 divine directives it's a mouthful but 140 00:06:33,470 --> 00:06:29,610 it's really a powerful powerful idea and 141 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:33,480 I was like wow this is great I'm onboard 142 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:36,510 this is a guy I have to talk to and then 143 00:06:42,290 --> 00:06:40,620 literally two days ago I'm kind of doing 144 00:06:44,510 --> 00:06:42,300 some more research and I'm trying to 145 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:44,520 figure this stuff out and I ran across 146 00:06:49,820 --> 00:06:47,610 another quote and I know this enemies 147 00:06:50,510 --> 00:06:49,830 going on or this interest going on a 148 00:06:53,330 --> 00:06:50,520 little bit 149 00:06:56,689 --> 00:06:53,340 I want to play for folks this next quote 150 00:06:59,360 --> 00:06:56,699 that I heard from a very nice interview 151 00:07:02,749 --> 00:06:59,370 you did on podcast a few years ago 152 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:02,759 called conversations from the pale blue 153 00:07:08,629 --> 00:07:07,050 dot and let me play for folks this clip 154 00:07:11,719 --> 00:07:08,639 and then I think we're gonna have 155 00:07:14,870 --> 00:07:11,729 something to talk about inherent what 156 00:07:18,439 --> 00:07:14,880 seems to be an inherent tension and 157 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:18,449 inherent proclivity for engaging in 158 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:20,880 rituals and for believing in the 159 00:07:25,330 --> 00:07:21,900 supernatural 160 00:07:27,770 --> 00:07:25,340 this stems from a fundamental biological 161 00:07:31,580 --> 00:07:27,780 adaptation that maybe a million or more 162 00:07:33,740 --> 00:07:31,590 years old so there we go so then I was 163 00:07:35,540 --> 00:07:33,750 kind of rocked back and said oh this is 164 00:07:38,450 --> 00:07:35,550 again gonna be another one of those 165 00:07:41,029 --> 00:07:38,460 materialist kind of jam it back into a 166 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:41,039 very kind of narrow framework thing so I 167 00:07:45,290 --> 00:07:42,930 sent you an email and I said hey Brian 168 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:45,300 where should we go on this and you said 169 00:07:50,110 --> 00:07:47,490 a really cool email back because I had 170 00:07:53,930 --> 00:07:50,120 referenced for example dr. Dean Radin 171 00:07:56,870 --> 00:07:53,940 dr. Jack hunter an anthropologist who as 172 00:07:59,570 --> 00:07:56,880 he calls himself a para anthropologist 173 00:08:02,270 --> 00:07:59,580 because he's open to these extended 174 00:08:04,159 --> 00:08:02,280 consciousness realities and how they 175 00:08:06,860 --> 00:08:04,169 might affect our understanding of 176 00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:06,870 archaeology and I also sent you a link 177 00:08:13,219 --> 00:08:09,630 to a show we did with Jan Vanessa Stein 178 00:08:16,339 --> 00:08:13,229 who studied the Ulchi shaman groups in 179 00:08:18,860 --> 00:08:16,349 Siberia for 30 years and reports back 180 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:18,870 all these extraordinary extended 181 00:08:24,589 --> 00:08:21,690 consciousness supernatural experiences I 182 00:08:26,300 --> 00:08:24,599 just want to lay out this groundwork for 183 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:26,310 how we came to this interview because we 184 00:08:31,370 --> 00:08:28,409 have so many cool things to talk about 185 00:08:34,940 --> 00:08:31,380 and now we just have to figure out where 186 00:08:40,490 --> 00:08:34,950 to grab on to this and launch us into a 187 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:40,500 conversation okay so where shall we 188 00:08:45,949 --> 00:08:42,810 begin I think we shall begin with those 189 00:08:48,670 --> 00:08:45,959 two quotes of yours that I mentioned one 190 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:48,680 from your book and the other from the 191 00:08:54,290 --> 00:08:51,450 interview that you did how do we resolve 192 00:08:57,260 --> 00:08:54,300 those two how are we to understand what 193 00:09:00,460 --> 00:08:57,270 you're saying there well I have to say 194 00:09:03,079 --> 00:09:00,470 that both of those are really from a 195 00:09:03,740 --> 00:09:03,089 what you would call a materialist if you 196 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:03,750 like 197 00:09:11,270 --> 00:09:09,210 an ecological viewpoint and I don't 198 00:09:14,450 --> 00:09:11,280 think you can dismiss the materialist 199 00:09:17,270 --> 00:09:14,460 aspects any more than you can dismiss 200 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:17,280 physics from you know explaining how 201 00:09:22,340 --> 00:09:19,710 toasters work and how we get people to 202 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:22,350 the moon and things like that but it's 203 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:23,490 not the whole picture 204 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:26,730 either and so that's my my background I 205 00:09:31,790 --> 00:09:29,130 mean my personal feeling is that that 206 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:31,800 physics and materialism and ecology does 207 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:34,050 not account for the entire universe as 208 00:09:40,010 --> 00:09:36,810 we know it but you know I have to say 209 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:40,020 that for certain questions like how do 210 00:09:45,380 --> 00:09:42,690 you get somebody physically to the moon 211 00:09:48,130 --> 00:09:45,390 physics is the base materialism is the 212 00:09:50,870 --> 00:09:48,140 base but if you look at the great 213 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:50,880 physicists I'm not sure if you know of 214 00:09:58,370 --> 00:09:54,090 Ken Wilbur's book quantum questions but 215 00:10:01,250 --> 00:09:58,380 that's basically a compendium of the 216 00:10:04,340 --> 00:10:01,260 mystical writings of the great 217 00:10:07,970 --> 00:10:04,350 physicists of the world like Heisenberg 218 00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:07,980 and Schrodinger at Einstein and de 219 00:10:15,170 --> 00:10:12,260 Broglie and Max Planck and Pauli and 220 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:15,180 Eddington who was an astronomer but all 221 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:16,890 these great physicists you know they 222 00:10:21,830 --> 00:10:19,050 they say that you know what we're really 223 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:21,840 looking at is just it's just superficial 224 00:10:28,250 --> 00:10:25,710 stuff and it's very selective and behind 225 00:10:30,530 --> 00:10:28,260 that there is something more that's 226 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:30,540 going on that we can't really have 227 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:33,450 access to it's that kind of material and 228 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:37,530 and also in more contemporary times 229 00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:40,290 there's physicists playing around with 230 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:42,080 something called the anthropic principle 231 00:10:48,980 --> 00:10:46,050 which is also pretty mystical and many 232 00:10:52,430 --> 00:10:48,990 of its manifestations but these deal 233 00:10:55,790 --> 00:10:52,440 with other aspects of the universe and 234 00:10:58,490 --> 00:10:55,800 other questions none of these guys would 235 00:11:01,520 --> 00:10:58,500 say no we you know we don't need physics 236 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:01,530 or materialism if we want to get to the 237 00:11:06,410 --> 00:11:03,690 moon they'd always say okay well that's 238 00:11:08,210 --> 00:11:06,420 that's a specific question we have to 239 00:11:10,970 --> 00:11:08,220 deal with and so what I'm trying to say 240 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:10,980 is that in in academics and academic 241 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:12,930 spheres at least in my conception of 242 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:16,290 academics we have specific issues like 243 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:17,370 getting to the moon 244 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:21,930 or explaining human evolution or social 245 00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:24,690 evolution our cultural evolution if you 246 00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:27,960 like and that their materialism in 247 00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:31,680 ecology is the best framework for 248 00:11:37,490 --> 00:11:35,310 dealing with those questions and so 249 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:37,500 that's the framework that I've used just 250 00:11:43,970 --> 00:11:40,050 like physics is the best framework for 251 00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:43,980 getting somebody to the moon but Brian I 252 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:46,110 mean that's interesting I'm glad you 253 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:48,210 bring up Heisenberg and Schrodinger and 254 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:50,970 those guys are great I'm not sure I'm 255 00:11:56,269 --> 00:11:54,510 with you on how that history kind of 256 00:11:59,329 --> 00:11:56,279 evolves there because they're going down 257 00:12:00,890 --> 00:11:59,339 one path and then another group emerges 258 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:00,900 with their and they're the shutup and 259 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:07,529 calculate guys right so say it rightly 260 00:12:12,590 --> 00:12:09,690 so which is I think your point they say 261 00:12:15,710 --> 00:12:12,600 look we can sit here and have these 262 00:12:17,890 --> 00:12:15,720 philosophical arguments all day long but 263 00:12:21,380 --> 00:12:17,900 in the meantime we have some incredible 264 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:21,390 formulas powerful mathematical models 265 00:12:25,340 --> 00:12:23,250 that we that have fallen out of this 266 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:25,350 work we've done in quantum physics that 267 00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:28,529 could provide it just is huge leg 268 00:12:33,410 --> 00:12:30,540 forward in technology and they were 269 00:12:35,329 --> 00:12:33,420 right and it did and it led to computers 270 00:12:37,579 --> 00:12:35,339 and cell phones and the communication 271 00:12:41,890 --> 00:12:37,589 system we have all this stuff is based 272 00:12:44,329 --> 00:12:41,900 on these very reliable quantum physics 273 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:44,339 understandings that we have but in the 274 00:12:50,930 --> 00:12:46,970 meantime they sidestepped the 275 00:12:52,970 --> 00:12:50,940 philosophical question that the Mystics 276 00:12:55,930 --> 00:12:52,980 like Schrodinger and the rest were 277 00:12:59,690 --> 00:12:55,940 talking about I don't think the same 278 00:13:01,810 --> 00:12:59,700 actually applies in anthropology to a 279 00:13:05,810 --> 00:13:01,820 certain extent you know so shut up and 280 00:13:09,140 --> 00:13:05,820 calculate works in a limited sense so 281 00:13:12,590 --> 00:13:09,150 does shut up and excavate if you will 282 00:13:15,079 --> 00:13:12,600 for archeology but when we start talking 283 00:13:17,660 --> 00:13:15,089 about the prehistory of religion and 284 00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:17,670 ritual and the rest of that if we leave 285 00:13:22,940 --> 00:13:19,920 out our understanding of the 286 00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:22,950 relationship to the supernatural we 287 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:25,380 can't confine that to a materialist 288 00:13:30,530 --> 00:13:28,370 explanation that completely denies that 289 00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:30,540 consciousness even exists which i think 290 00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:31,260 is 291 00:13:41,450 --> 00:13:37,230 the work that you're doing but you're 292 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:41,460 inside of an academic bubble that is it 293 00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:44,130 has this dogmatic understanding of 294 00:13:49,220 --> 00:13:46,950 consciousness that isn't just you know a 295 00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:49,230 shut up and calculate thing it's wrong 296 00:13:54,860 --> 00:13:51,780 it's been falsified the best evidence we 297 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:54,870 have suggests that the preconceptions 298 00:14:00,530 --> 00:13:57,770 they have about consciousness let alone 299 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:00,540 extended consciousness is just 300 00:14:08,390 --> 00:14:04,170 completely falsified this problem 301 00:14:12,380 --> 00:14:08,400 well no it's part of the as part of the 302 00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:12,390 spectrum of scientific views that exists 303 00:14:18,140 --> 00:14:15,540 I mean you know Dean Radin is an 304 00:14:20,810 --> 00:14:18,150 academic he he's part of the spectrum 305 00:14:23,570 --> 00:14:20,820 and you know there are those shut up and 306 00:14:26,110 --> 00:14:23,580 calculate guys but they don't represent 307 00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:26,120 everybody and they don't represent 308 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:29,310 certainly my my perspectives I know I've 309 00:14:34,010 --> 00:14:31,410 worked with people that are what I would 310 00:14:36,590 --> 00:14:34,020 call hard scientists you know and and 311 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:36,600 they just don't have any truck with any 312 00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,090 of these issues of metaphysics or 313 00:14:45,980 --> 00:14:42,000 anything else that's not my view it's 314 00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:45,990 not Dean Raiden's view it's not it may 315 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:48,720 be pretty common but it's not the whole 316 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:51,450 thing so let's be careful there because 317 00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:53,490 within the same breath we can say yeah 318 00:14:57,850 --> 00:14:55,470 you know in there's a lot of people now 319 00:15:00,650 --> 00:14:57,860 that are very drawn to the Flat Earth 320 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:00,660 hypothesis yeah funny I was watching 321 00:15:04,340 --> 00:15:02,610 that watching the weather the other day 322 00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:04,350 and I never watch it but the guy 323 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:07,110 actually went through some explanation 324 00:15:12,290 --> 00:15:09,690 for how the earth turns and relationship 325 00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:12,300 to the Sun and I go my god this is like 326 00:15:17,570 --> 00:15:15,420 a counter to their base directly 327 00:15:19,790 --> 00:15:17,580 responding to the number of people who 328 00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:19,800 believe in the Flat Earth theory so my 329 00:15:25,730 --> 00:15:22,380 point is we don't take those people 330 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:25,740 seriously and only hear their ideas in 331 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:28,530 this kind of intellectual discourse we 332 00:15:32,690 --> 00:15:30,810 then make further assumptions about 333 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:32,700 where they're coming from and the same 334 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:35,910 is true with the materialists who don't 335 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:37,530 believe in consciousness or believe that 336 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:39,690 consciousness is an illusion you know 337 00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:41,490 which was the famous Daniel Dennett 338 00:15:45,049 --> 00:15:43,800 thing for the longest time I mean ten 339 00:15:47,569 --> 00:15:45,059 years ago it was even 340 00:15:49,549 --> 00:15:47,579 more popular now that fortunately you 341 00:15:51,739 --> 00:15:49,559 know the cutting edge if you will of 342 00:15:54,139 --> 00:15:51,749 consciousness science is kind of quietly 343 00:15:56,779 --> 00:15:54,149 moved away from that because it was such 344 00:15:58,789 --> 00:15:56,789 an absurd idea but I don't think we 345 00:16:00,709 --> 00:15:58,799 should you know equate those two and put 346 00:16:03,139 --> 00:16:00,719 them on the same level of saying well 347 00:16:04,849 --> 00:16:03,149 you know everyone has an opinion and now 348 00:16:07,789 --> 00:16:04,859 let me add really quickly here Brian 349 00:16:10,279 --> 00:16:07,799 because I don't want to you are on the 350 00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,289 edge you and I are kind of on the same 351 00:16:17,059 --> 00:16:13,199 side you've had to battle your entire 352 00:16:19,699 --> 00:16:17,069 academic career to get your voice in 353 00:16:21,889 --> 00:16:19,709 there that even says hey guys do we 354 00:16:24,159 --> 00:16:21,899 maybe even want to look at the fact that 355 00:16:27,019 --> 00:16:24,169 all these folks I'm talking to our 356 00:16:30,139 --> 00:16:27,029 reporting contact with the supernatural 357 00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:30,149 right I mean so I want to go what was 358 00:16:34,519 --> 00:16:32,639 that like for you and and where do you 359 00:16:37,219 --> 00:16:34,529 come down at the end of the day on some 360 00:16:39,649 --> 00:16:37,229 well you know and in the academic circle 361 00:16:42,019 --> 00:16:39,659 I've sort of skirted that issue and I 362 00:16:48,109 --> 00:16:42,029 just sort of haven't I mean I've tried 363 00:16:51,739 --> 00:16:48,119 to well there's I've tried to frame 364 00:16:55,309 --> 00:16:51,749 questions that don't directly address 365 00:16:57,709 --> 00:16:55,319 that problem but in my personal life 366 00:16:59,779 --> 00:16:57,719 you know I have experienced a lot of 367 00:17:02,359 --> 00:16:59,789 things and you know there's not too much 368 00:17:04,939 --> 00:17:02,369 doubt in my mind that there's 369 00:17:07,159 --> 00:17:04,949 synchronicity that's out there in the 370 00:17:09,379 --> 00:17:07,169 universe and there are a lot of things 371 00:17:12,679 --> 00:17:09,389 that Dean Radin was talking about like 372 00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:12,689 precognition and a lot of things that we 373 00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:15,720 just can't explain yet and so I haven't 374 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:18,360 I've tried not to deal necessarily with 375 00:17:23,239 --> 00:17:20,369 that leave that serve as an open 376 00:17:26,829 --> 00:17:23,249 question from an academic point of view 377 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:26,839 what I have tried to do is look at the 378 00:17:36,619 --> 00:17:31,580 the way people use some of these innate 379 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:36,629 feelings and Nate's proclivities to try 380 00:17:43,879 --> 00:17:39,090 to manipulate them and get more power 381 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:43,889 with for themselves in society and 382 00:17:48,019 --> 00:17:45,450 that's why I started talking about some 383 00:17:51,019 --> 00:17:48,029 of the different personality types 384 00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:51,029 because I I think there's a small group 385 00:17:56,419 --> 00:17:54,240 that really has manipulated themselves 386 00:17:58,659 --> 00:17:56,429 into position of power and we see that 387 00:18:02,919 --> 00:17:58,669 today obviously with our 388 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:02,929 in economic system the question is how 389 00:18:07,419 --> 00:18:03,769 they got there 390 00:18:10,869 --> 00:18:07,429 and I refer these people as a grand Iser 391 00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:10,879 z' and think that they're they're always 392 00:18:16,869 --> 00:18:13,340 pushing for their own self-interest and 393 00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:16,879 they're always pushing to find ways of 394 00:18:21,609 --> 00:18:19,609 increasing their self-interests and 395 00:18:26,799 --> 00:18:21,619 they've developed a whole series of 396 00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:26,809 strategies and I think control or claims 397 00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:30,350 to control or have exclusive access to 398 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:33,320 the supernatural is one of those 399 00:18:38,590 --> 00:18:35,450 strategies that they've used to get 400 00:18:41,249 --> 00:18:38,600 control so that's the way the problem 401 00:18:44,729 --> 00:18:41,259 the academic problem that that I framed 402 00:18:48,639 --> 00:18:44,739 to try to deal with and to what degree 403 00:18:51,539 --> 00:18:48,649 the claims about the spirit world are 404 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:51,549 real and to what degree they are 405 00:18:57,700 --> 00:18:55,970 political manipulations is pretty you 406 00:19:00,519 --> 00:18:57,710 know that's a whole nother question 407 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:00,529 that's open and I what I tried to show 408 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:03,350 is that some of these claims are pretty 409 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:06,529 self-serving like the claim on the 410 00:19:13,989 --> 00:19:11,690 Plains Indians that you know if if I as 411 00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:13,999 a leader of a secret society has sex 412 00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:16,220 with your wife then you can get some of 413 00:19:20,859 --> 00:19:18,590 my supernatural power by your 414 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:20,869 relationship with her you know and so 415 00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,129 that's a claim about how the 416 00:19:30,849 --> 00:19:27,200 supernatural world is structured in how 417 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:30,859 you can transfer power also through 418 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:34,210 purchase which is also fairly 419 00:19:40,509 --> 00:19:38,090 transparently self-serving but you know 420 00:19:44,999 --> 00:19:40,519 you have to question you know is this 421 00:19:48,269 --> 00:19:45,009 based in in real terms about the way the 422 00:19:52,479 --> 00:19:48,279 supernatural world works or is this a 423 00:19:55,539 --> 00:19:52,489 simple manipulation to you know a claim 424 00:20:00,539 --> 00:19:55,549 an ideological claim about the ontology 425 00:20:03,820 --> 00:20:00,549 of the supernatural to promote 426 00:20:06,669 --> 00:20:03,830 individual self interests and I think 427 00:20:10,629 --> 00:20:06,679 you can find a lot of that kind of issue 428 00:20:12,489 --> 00:20:10,639 and secret societies but it's really 429 00:20:12,940 --> 00:20:12,499 right hold on because let me jump in 430 00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:12,950 here 431 00:20:17,290 --> 00:20:14,800 because I had a really really 432 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:17,300 interesting and important jumping-off 433 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:20,210 point and I think it's the both the 434 00:20:24,820 --> 00:20:22,250 challenge if you will and the 435 00:20:25,690 --> 00:20:24,830 opportunity of your research because we 436 00:20:28,930 --> 00:20:25,700 can go two ways 437 00:20:32,890 --> 00:20:28,940 one we can explore that topic right 438 00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:32,900 there within the confines of this kind 439 00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:35,840 of strict academic materialism of course 440 00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:38,750 there is no such thing as a spirit world 441 00:20:43,570 --> 00:20:41,750 of course that's all just right and then 442 00:20:45,970 --> 00:20:43,580 we have to kind of and then that's kind 443 00:20:49,090 --> 00:20:45,980 of a strange conversation because on one 444 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:49,100 hand you're lending credibility to that 445 00:20:54,370 --> 00:20:51,710 belief system which sounds kind of 446 00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:54,380 strange but you're reserving this oh but 447 00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:55,910 of course I don't believe any of that 448 00:21:00,460 --> 00:20:57,890 and I'm just telling you Brian 449 00:21:02,650 --> 00:21:00,470 I appreciate this from you that doesn't 450 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:02,660 come through when I talk to you what I 451 00:21:07,510 --> 00:21:05,210 hear is someone who says I think there's 452 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:07,520 a reality to that I don't know what that 453 00:21:12,250 --> 00:21:10,130 reality is but I accept that there is a 454 00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:12,260 reality but I can't really go there 455 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:15,080 because I'm inside of these confines but 456 00:21:20,110 --> 00:21:17,210 so the other way then to jump off is to 457 00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:20,120 say okay there is some reality to that 458 00:21:25,780 --> 00:21:23,120 spirit world we don't know what it is we 459 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:25,790 don't know the ontology of it when we 460 00:21:31,540 --> 00:21:27,950 probably never can because we're on the 461 00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:31,550 wrong side of the equation the wrong 462 00:21:36,550 --> 00:21:33,830 side of the telescope if you will but 463 00:21:40,510 --> 00:21:36,560 the best we can we have to incorporate 464 00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:40,520 some reality of that into it otherwise 465 00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:43,670 this just looks completely different 466 00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:46,430 right so yeah it's weighed on me which 467 00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:49,310 way do we jump on this well I you know I 468 00:21:57,790 --> 00:21:53,740 said I'd like both Jack hunters take on 469 00:22:01,840 --> 00:21:57,800 how we get at reality in terms of all 470 00:22:03,310 --> 00:22:01,850 these different worldviews or cosmic 471 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:03,320 views of different cultures and 472 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:06,110 different individuals all having 473 00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:09,890 snippets of the truth if you can ever 474 00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:13,550 even talk about the truth snippets of 475 00:22:19,420 --> 00:22:17,030 reality I guess and Dean Raiden's 476 00:22:21,460 --> 00:22:19,430 approach saying well we've got to look 477 00:22:25,549 --> 00:22:21,470 at some commonalities here and see 478 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:25,559 what's common across cultures and 479 00:22:31,310 --> 00:22:28,650 and that should give us one anchor you 480 00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:31,320 know to try to approach this from trying 481 00:22:35,899 --> 00:22:33,360 to make some sense out of all the 482 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:35,909 variation that there is and all the 483 00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:38,850 different practices so I think from my 484 00:22:44,810 --> 00:22:42,150 personal perspective there is dealing 485 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:44,820 let me say say it this way dealing with 486 00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:47,490 questions of the supernatural and what's 487 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:50,159 real and what's not is an extremely 488 00:22:55,279 --> 00:22:53,010 difficult question because it's so 489 00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:55,289 complex it's it's one of those questions 490 00:23:01,340 --> 00:22:59,360 that I've not tried to deal with in a 491 00:23:04,220 --> 00:23:01,350 comprehensive way I've just tried to 492 00:23:08,110 --> 00:23:04,230 point out that you know at least part of 493 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:08,120 the claims about the supernatural are 494 00:23:12,740 --> 00:23:10,250 bogus 495 00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:12,750 especially from secret society 496 00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:16,350 perspectives but there is an unknowable 497 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:19,980 portion that may have some insights into 498 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:23,010 ultimate reality in there including 499 00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:25,530 these transcendent these ecstatic 500 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:30,270 experiences which may have a window open 501 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:34,250 up a window into other dimensions that 502 00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:37,710 the content that comes through from that 503 00:23:46,340 --> 00:23:43,020 is so varied that it's it's unreliable 504 00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:46,350 but maybe very it may be very but in 505 00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:48,960 some respects it's so important to the 506 00:23:53,390 --> 00:23:50,940 overall question it kind of Dwarfs 507 00:23:56,659 --> 00:23:53,400 everything else I mean so do we really 508 00:24:00,320 --> 00:23:56,669 want to talk about you know some Indian 509 00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:00,330 chief who's trying to get it on with 510 00:24:05,539 --> 00:24:03,270 some young right tell it some story 511 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:05,549 about his talking to gods or do we want 512 00:24:08,779 --> 00:24:07,080 to talk about his real communication 513 00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:08,789 with the guts you know one of the links 514 00:24:12,890 --> 00:24:10,860 I sent you that's the question yeah yeah 515 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:12,900 yeah so I was just gonna relate bring it 516 00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:14,490 down to a concrete level for the 517 00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:16,620 audience one of the links I sent you was 518 00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:18,960 a show that I did with jammed a Nessa 519 00:24:21,169 --> 00:24:20,460 Stein who is this really interesting 520 00:24:22,850 --> 00:24:21,179 person 521 00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:22,860 she's runs a book store in Seattle 522 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:25,440 here's her story and a guy shows up in 523 00:24:28,909 --> 00:24:27,210 her book store and says a Russian guy 524 00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:28,919 says I've been studying the all chased 525 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:31,950 the original shaman in Siberia for all 526 00:24:35,180 --> 00:24:33,450 these years and I'd like to give a 527 00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:35,190 presentation at your bookstore and she 528 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:37,200 goes great she's so impressed that she 529 00:24:42,530 --> 00:24:39,330 says we ought to invite some of the 530 00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:42,540 all J people over so now this is an 531 00:24:47,810 --> 00:24:45,390 ongoing 30-year 30 years in a row 532 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:47,820 she's invited these all che over she 533 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:49,710 studied them she shared all this 534 00:24:56,030 --> 00:24:52,890 information with folks so Jan's story 535 00:24:58,760 --> 00:24:56,040 then gets so I really pushed her because 536 00:25:00,200 --> 00:24:58,770 I felt like that was my job so the old 537 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:00,210 che great they can do all these things 538 00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:02,610 where's their iPhone and she 539 00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:05,520 says well you know I don't know but I've 540 00:25:10,820 --> 00:25:08,640 sat in a room with the all che with all 541 00:25:14,450 --> 00:25:10,830 the doors and the windows closed and 542 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:14,460 they've summoned up wind spirits and all 543 00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:16,890 the papers in my house flew around in a 544 00:25:21,290 --> 00:25:19,320 tornado and it wasn't just me it was a 545 00:25:23,810 --> 00:25:21,300 group of a dozen people and we all 546 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:23,820 experienced it and I walked out nature 547 00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:25,770 with them and they called the animals 548 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:27,660 forward and the animals came out of the 549 00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:29,760 force like it was a freaking petting zoo 550 00:25:38,110 --> 00:25:34,320 so you know this is the reality that 551 00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:38,120 they experienced that to me Trump's the 552 00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:41,910 piddly stuff of is someone using their 553 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:45,360 powers to get ahead or to you know beat 554 00:25:50,930 --> 00:25:47,610 somebody out of some money or some yeah 555 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:50,940 well absolutely I mean they're that kind 556 00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:53,970 of thing exists absolutely and the 557 00:26:01,130 --> 00:25:57,390 question is you know what what it tells 558 00:26:03,290 --> 00:26:01,140 us about the other dimensions and how 559 00:26:04,670 --> 00:26:03,300 the universe is structured how it 560 00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:04,680 functions how it works 561 00:26:15,350 --> 00:26:09,440 yeah and precognition as well and 562 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:15,360 telepathy etc and those are you know as 563 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:20,010 I say it's such a huge and difficult 564 00:26:25,610 --> 00:26:22,170 topic to deal with to try to sort out 565 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:25,620 what's what's absolute and what's or 566 00:26:32,060 --> 00:26:28,770 what's real and what's not is for me it 567 00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:32,070 was difficult undertaking that I sort of 568 00:26:37,790 --> 00:26:35,520 backed off from but you know I had my 569 00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:37,800 own experiences and certainly had my own 570 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:40,590 personal views on things like that but 571 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:42,210 from an academic point of view I was 572 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:44,730 just trying to point out that a lot of 573 00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:47,490 the stuff they did happen in these 574 00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:51,120 secret societies was smoke and mirrors 575 00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:52,190 and shams 576 00:26:58,379 --> 00:26:54,980 they they put on performances not like 577 00:27:00,820 --> 00:26:58,389 the old chief that sounded real but the 578 00:27:03,730 --> 00:27:00,830 performances that they put on in these 579 00:27:08,590 --> 00:27:03,740 secret societies at least a lot of them 580 00:27:11,289 --> 00:27:08,600 were put on stage magic and meant to 581 00:27:12,909 --> 00:27:11,299 deceive people and convince them of 582 00:27:16,330 --> 00:27:12,919 supernatural powers that didn't 583 00:27:19,210 --> 00:27:16,340 necessarily exist and that's part of the 584 00:27:23,230 --> 00:27:19,220 the difference between real shamanism 585 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:23,240 and the secret society stuff because the 586 00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:26,210 secret societies recruit people on the 587 00:27:32,499 --> 00:27:27,860 basis of their wealth and their power 588 00:27:35,019 --> 00:27:32,509 not not on the basis of their shamanic 589 00:27:37,060 --> 00:27:35,029 abilities okay or their their 590 00:27:39,149 --> 00:27:37,070 understanding of the supernatural or 591 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:39,159 their understanding of or their 592 00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:44,570 intuitive abilities and so as a result 593 00:27:50,169 --> 00:27:47,600 perhaps you need to have this kind of 594 00:27:53,950 --> 00:27:50,179 stage magic because these guys by and 595 00:27:56,379 --> 00:27:53,960 large don't have those abilities or it's 596 00:27:58,720 --> 00:27:56,389 both I mean I think so this is I really 597 00:28:01,149 --> 00:27:58,730 appreciate your honesty and your ability 598 00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:01,159 to kind of talk about the full spectrum 599 00:28:06,249 --> 00:28:04,070 of the experience and the reality 600 00:28:08,619 --> 00:28:06,259 because I did feel like you were kind of 601 00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:08,629 hamstrung which I totally understand I 602 00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:12,799 mean you you were your job within 603 00:28:18,639 --> 00:28:15,860 academia you can only push the envelope 604 00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:18,649 so far and believe me I respect that you 605 00:28:23,289 --> 00:28:21,350 were out there pushing the edge so but 606 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:23,299 totally cool that now we're having this 607 00:28:26,350 --> 00:28:25,610 more broad spectrum conversation because 608 00:28:28,210 --> 00:28:26,360 there's a lot of really interesting 609 00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:28,220 points and you just hit on one of them 610 00:28:31,450 --> 00:28:30,049 and I'd be very interested to get your 611 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:31,460 opinion on this because it's something 612 00:28:36,220 --> 00:28:34,730 that's really I've tossed back and forth 613 00:28:39,639 --> 00:28:36,230 and I'll give you a modern-day example 614 00:28:42,490 --> 00:28:39,649 and that's early Geller so Rory Geller 615 00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:42,500 is this guy for people who don't know 616 00:28:47,139 --> 00:28:44,470 he's originally an Israeli this 617 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:47,149 incredibly gifted psychic if you will 618 00:28:54,610 --> 00:28:49,730 yeah there's many accounts that he has 619 00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:54,620 genuinely laboratory tested abilities 620 00:28:59,769 --> 00:28:57,200 and these were tested by at Stanford 621 00:29:02,399 --> 00:28:59,779 Research Institute by help hood off and 622 00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:02,409 Russell Targ to be world-class 623 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:04,940 scientists and when people say that oh 624 00:29:08,029 --> 00:29:06,090 you know he 625 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:08,039 via aura Geller was able to you know 626 00:29:12,590 --> 00:29:10,650 trick them you know no way just go back 627 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:12,600 and watch the videos that they did in 628 00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:15,510 the experimental protocols very easy to 629 00:29:21,740 --> 00:29:18,990 control for and uri geller showed these 630 00:29:23,539 --> 00:29:21,750 this kind of psy ability psychic ability 631 00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:23,549 and then I did an interview not too long 632 00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:25,140 ago was shocked fillet we're shocked 633 00:29:31,010 --> 00:29:28,049 fillet said I was at the cafeteria table 634 00:29:34,130 --> 00:29:31,020 with Russell Targ and Ori Geller and he 635 00:29:37,010 --> 00:29:34,140 demonstrated it to me and I'm no fool I 636 00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:37,020 get this at the same time and here's to 637 00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:37,740 your point 638 00:29:44,570 --> 00:29:40,559 hurry Geller was clearly using stage 639 00:29:47,899 --> 00:29:44,580 magic when he went on stage and he was 640 00:29:51,049 --> 00:29:47,909 even outed as you know doing trickery 641 00:29:53,899 --> 00:29:51,059 and stageman so why is he mixing the two 642 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:53,909 and you could argue you know that maybe 643 00:29:59,060 --> 00:29:56,450 he had to because to perform it to 644 00:30:01,419 --> 00:29:59,070 deliver it on demand like that 645 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:01,429 but I also wonder if there's this other 646 00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:05,610 trickster kind of deceptive aspect to 647 00:30:10,299 --> 00:30:07,919 this I mean what what is your take what 648 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:10,309 is going on why are these two things 649 00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:12,510 coexisting and why are we trying to pull 650 00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,070 them apart and say there should be some 651 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:16,799 pure shamanism some pure connection to 652 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:18,570 the spiritual and yet we have these 653 00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:21,210 figures that are just mixing the two in 654 00:30:27,649 --> 00:30:24,750 the strange way well shamans habitually 655 00:30:29,779 --> 00:30:27,659 mix the two as well you know I mean 656 00:30:33,289 --> 00:30:29,789 there are some incredible accounts of 657 00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:33,299 shamanic precognition and things like 658 00:30:37,899 --> 00:30:35,070 that but there are also lots of accounts 659 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:37,909 of shamans using you know out-and-out 660 00:30:43,519 --> 00:30:40,770 trickery and stage magic to convince 661 00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:43,529 their patients that they have all these 662 00:30:47,659 --> 00:30:45,720 powers and that's very effective in 663 00:30:50,419 --> 00:30:47,669 curing by the way you know you get the 664 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:50,429 placebo effect and if people believe 665 00:30:56,210 --> 00:30:52,770 they're gonna be cured then they tend to 666 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:56,220 be cured a lot more effectively than if 667 00:31:00,769 --> 00:30:57,450 they don't believe they're going to be 668 00:31:03,769 --> 00:31:00,779 cured so I you know it's a mixture as 669 00:31:05,330 --> 00:31:03,779 you say and certainly when you get into 670 00:31:08,990 --> 00:31:05,340 secret societies 671 00:31:12,850 --> 00:31:09,000 I think the they do include some people 672 00:31:16,639 --> 00:31:12,860 with genuine abilities genuine 673 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:16,649 supernatural abilities I think but the 674 00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:18,930 bulk of people that get initiated are 675 00:31:23,570 --> 00:31:21,480 the basis as I said of of how much 676 00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:23,580 wealth their family has rather than 677 00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:26,520 their their shamanic abilities and so 678 00:31:32,540 --> 00:31:29,190 those people you know you yeah you've 679 00:31:34,430 --> 00:31:32,550 got a you stage magic convincing people 680 00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:34,440 that they have supernatural powers and 681 00:31:38,420 --> 00:31:36,870 that's what the secret societies are all 682 00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:38,430 about they've got to convince people 683 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:42,720 that there are spirits and and that the 684 00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:45,810 these spirits can create havoc in their 685 00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:48,720 community and that the secret society 686 00:31:54,910 --> 00:31:51,960 has the power to hold these malevolent 687 00:31:57,380 --> 00:31:54,920 spirits at bay like the cannibal lists 688 00:32:00,290 --> 00:31:57,390 cannibal spirits on the northwest coast 689 00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:00,300 here that could invade like your 690 00:32:07,340 --> 00:32:03,030 community like zombies and destroy 691 00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:07,350 everybody and eat everybody as well so 692 00:32:13,070 --> 00:32:09,030 you know they've got to convince people 693 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:13,080 that the this is a real possibility 694 00:32:19,060 --> 00:32:16,710 and so they resort to anything that they 695 00:32:22,730 --> 00:32:19,070 need to to convince people of that 696 00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:22,740 including putting people into ecstatic 697 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:25,230 states of extreme hunger and where they 698 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:27,930 come back and you know and they they 699 00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,690 arrange for people to be bitten they pay 700 00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:32,640 them off ahead of time it's all arranged 701 00:32:37,910 --> 00:32:36,240 ahead of time but and these wild spirits 702 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:37,920 coming back from the woods and they 703 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:40,650 start destroying things and biting 704 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:44,250 people and so it's you know all of that 705 00:32:49,340 --> 00:32:47,370 staged but it doesn't mean that there 706 00:32:53,030 --> 00:32:49,350 are no such things as spirits as matter 707 00:32:56,540 --> 00:32:53,040 of fact virtually all the traditions the 708 00:32:59,240 --> 00:32:56,550 secret society shamanic etc they all 709 00:33:02,570 --> 00:32:59,250 maintain the reality of the spirit world 710 00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:02,580 and with spiritual forces and so that's 711 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:06,390 one of the major commonalities and you 712 00:33:14,660 --> 00:33:09,450 know it raises the question okay is is 713 00:33:16,340 --> 00:33:14,670 this the baseline of supernatural 714 00:33:18,770 --> 00:33:16,350 reality that there are some of these 715 00:33:20,330 --> 00:33:18,780 forces that we call spirits out there 716 00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:20,340 you know it can make a good argument 717 00:33:24,110 --> 00:33:22,620 yeah there are but you're really 718 00:33:25,850 --> 00:33:24,120 bringing something interesting to the 719 00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:25,860 table here and I really appreciate it 720 00:33:29,540 --> 00:33:28,080 and let's explore this now because when 721 00:33:32,270 --> 00:33:29,550 you say that part about the secret 722 00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:32,280 society I think a lot of people are 723 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:34,320 nodding their head and going yeah all 724 00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:36,330 these phony baloneys secret societies 725 00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:39,150 that I see nowadays or in the recent 726 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:41,700 past they seem to fit the bill 727 00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:43,890 I knew that all along whether they're 728 00:33:48,260 --> 00:33:46,080 talking about Scientology or Skull and 729 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:48,270 Bones or whatever but the contribution 730 00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:50,970 that you make that is so fascinating is 731 00:33:56,990 --> 00:33:53,910 you say no hold on guys I'm talking 732 00:34:01,340 --> 00:33:57,000 about going back as far as we can look 733 00:34:03,860 --> 00:34:01,350 into pre historical societies and right 734 00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:03,870 and we're seeing the same pattern so 735 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:06,780 what is that telling you well you mean 736 00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:08,490 the same pattern in terms of secret 737 00:34:12,830 --> 00:34:11,040 societies or spirituality and I I'm 738 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:12,840 sorry the same you're seeing the same 739 00:34:16,669 --> 00:34:14,850 pattern in terms of secret societies 740 00:34:20,659 --> 00:34:16,679 this thing you're calling self 741 00:34:23,390 --> 00:34:20,669 aggrandizement this social misbehavior 742 00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:23,400 is right way back I mean isn't that 743 00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:26,580 fascinating well it I wouldn't say it 744 00:34:32,870 --> 00:34:29,790 goes way way back in archaeological 745 00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:32,880 terms but it goes you know I argued that 746 00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:34,740 it goes back at least thirty thousand 747 00:34:39,919 --> 00:34:37,470 years to the Upper Paleolithic the case 748 00:34:43,690 --> 00:34:39,929 I made I think the strongest case that 749 00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:43,700 can be made is the painted caves in 750 00:34:50,659 --> 00:34:47,820 southwestern Europe like Lascaux where 751 00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:50,669 you know they've called some of the 752 00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:53,040 galleries there the Sistine Chapel of 753 00:34:58,430 --> 00:34:56,159 the Paleolithic and I think that's more 754 00:35:00,620 --> 00:34:58,440 appropriate than the original person 755 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:00,630 that coined the phrase probably realized 756 00:35:06,260 --> 00:35:03,690 because you know the Pope is the the 757 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:06,270 ultimate secret society head if you like 758 00:35:13,610 --> 00:35:10,890 and and he's got all this fabulous stuff 759 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:13,620 the art are surrounding him including 760 00:35:18,020 --> 00:35:15,450 the Sistine Chapel painted by 761 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:18,030 Michelangelo that's for his exclusive 762 00:35:24,020 --> 00:35:20,910 use and I think you know you could make 763 00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:24,030 the same argument for this gallery in 764 00:35:30,020 --> 00:35:26,310 Lascaux which is a narrow car door 765 00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:30,030 leading to a small enclaves surrounded 766 00:35:36,260 --> 00:35:32,460 by lots of painting high-quality 767 00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:36,270 paintings really masterpieces and it's 768 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:39,270 just a small little alcove that's 769 00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:42,090 suitable for one or two people to be in 770 00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:44,160 at once and you know I think that's 771 00:35:48,650 --> 00:35:45,990 basically where these 772 00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:48,660 guys heads of the secret societies were 773 00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:51,270 going to communicate with whatever 774 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:53,670 spirits they were dealing with at the 775 00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:55,850 time there are a lot of other 776 00:36:00,500 --> 00:35:59,040 indications of the existences you know 777 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:00,510 secret societies and the upper 778 00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:02,970 paleolithic - but I think this is one of 779 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:06,020 the strongest ones that can be made so 780 00:36:14,859 --> 00:36:09,810 back 30,000 years ago but you know this 781 00:36:18,109 --> 00:36:14,869 awareness of or ability to enter into 782 00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:18,119 some sort of awareness of other 783 00:36:24,530 --> 00:36:22,320 dimensions I think goes back much much 784 00:36:27,650 --> 00:36:24,540 further you know at least a million 785 00:36:31,850 --> 00:36:27,660 years ago I would guess and is probably 786 00:36:35,180 --> 00:36:31,860 based in a more fundamental mammalian 787 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:35,190 reaction toward starvation I mean this 788 00:36:41,020 --> 00:36:39,090 is this is my my take on this common 789 00:36:44,090 --> 00:36:41,030 thing because you know in all cultures 790 00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:44,100 all human cultures there is this 791 00:36:50,650 --> 00:36:47,190 awareness of a spiritual dimension and 792 00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:50,660 so it's gotta have some sort of 793 00:36:58,099 --> 00:36:54,240 biological basis that enables us to 794 00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:58,109 perceive this I mean some sort of 795 00:37:04,010 --> 00:37:00,720 structure in the brain that opens up you 796 00:37:06,290 --> 00:37:04,020 know I don't think snakes have this 797 00:37:07,910 --> 00:37:06,300 ability but we don't know that I mean 798 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:07,920 that that's a nuts again we're we're 799 00:37:12,380 --> 00:37:10,650 kind of trying to I feel like we fall 800 00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:12,390 into the next pothole which is to try 801 00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:15,260 and jam it back into some you know 802 00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:18,270 neo-darwinian kind of explanation for 803 00:37:23,180 --> 00:37:20,400 things that I think also fails you know 804 00:37:24,830 --> 00:37:23,190 I mean well I think you can't discount 805 00:37:27,980 --> 00:37:24,840 it any more than you can discount 806 00:37:30,590 --> 00:37:27,990 physics and going to the moon I think 807 00:37:34,690 --> 00:37:30,600 you can discount it as being incomplete 808 00:37:36,740 --> 00:37:34,700 you know yes yeah so just look at 809 00:37:39,770 --> 00:37:36,750 neuroplasticity you know which is a 810 00:37:42,980 --> 00:37:39,780 topic we've looked into extensively and 811 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:42,990 and already we know that the mind the 812 00:37:48,590 --> 00:37:45,930 voice inside our head is structuring or 813 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:48,600 restructuring our brain which leads to a 814 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:51,090 chicken and the egg question of how is 815 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:53,970 consciousness affecting the matter the 816 00:37:59,000 --> 00:37:56,250 material so you know we can no longer 817 00:37:59,480 --> 00:37:59,010 say oh it's just this kind of very 818 00:38:01,790 --> 00:37:59,490 simple 819 00:38:03,859 --> 00:38:01,800 listed kind of Darwinistic kind of thing 820 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:03,869 and and then we have the whole popular 821 00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:05,970 thing in consciousness science now is 822 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:08,310 pan psychism right so they've they've 823 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:10,970 let the consciousness is an illusion 824 00:38:15,770 --> 00:38:14,010 absurdity that just is a third grader 825 00:38:17,570 --> 00:38:15,780 would tell you is just ridiculous 826 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:17,580 and they said okay maybe you know this 827 00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:20,250 consciousness stuff well pan psychism 828 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:22,560 doesn't really get you there either but 829 00:38:27,770 --> 00:38:25,170 at least opens up the timeframe to where 830 00:38:32,090 --> 00:38:27,780 we can no longer have to jam it into 831 00:38:33,250 --> 00:38:32,100 some biological evolutionary you know 832 00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:33,260 think it's like the whole thing with 833 00:38:37,970 --> 00:38:35,640 epigenetics is another part of this 834 00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:37,980 right so they've we now have established 835 00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:40,950 that somehow there are these traits that 836 00:38:46,490 --> 00:38:43,920 are passed along so we want to use the 837 00:38:49,460 --> 00:38:46,500 term epigenetics to jam them back into 838 00:38:52,490 --> 00:38:49,470 genetics when any geneticist would tell 839 00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:52,500 you well we have no idea in the world 840 00:38:58,520 --> 00:38:56,430 how we could create a biological model 841 00:39:01,580 --> 00:38:58,530 for transferring that kind of 842 00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:01,590 information through genes I think a much 843 00:39:06,859 --> 00:39:04,440 more parsimonious explanation is some 844 00:39:10,220 --> 00:39:06,869 kind of field theory like dr. Rupert 845 00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:10,230 Sheldrake or ultimately it's idealism is 846 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:11,940 that consciousness is somehow 847 00:39:16,970 --> 00:39:14,330 fundamental back to our friends 848 00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:16,980 Schrodinger and the missus who said hey 849 00:39:22,370 --> 00:39:20,040 give it up it seems like consciousness 850 00:39:24,859 --> 00:39:22,380 is fundamental and matter is somehow 851 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:24,869 emerging from consciousness in a way we 852 00:39:29,570 --> 00:39:27,450 don't understand so that's a lot one 853 00:39:32,030 --> 00:39:29,580 kind of thing but I just don't like when 854 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:32,040 we then want to say well it must have 855 00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:34,770 emerged a million years well maybe maybe 856 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:38,640 maybe not well yeah of course but I was 857 00:39:44,570 --> 00:39:41,570 I was not trying to say that you know 858 00:39:46,609 --> 00:39:44,580 neo-darwinian models explain everything 859 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:46,619 I was just saying that you can't 860 00:39:54,290 --> 00:39:49,650 eliminate them you you need that is a 861 00:39:58,670 --> 00:39:54,300 basis for some aspects of you know how 862 00:40:00,680 --> 00:39:58,680 the brain evolved and and the brain you 863 00:40:03,970 --> 00:40:00,690 know without a brain we wouldn't be 864 00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:03,980 talking about all this stuff and 865 00:40:08,420 --> 00:40:06,480 consciousness obviously some people have 866 00:40:10,849 --> 00:40:08,430 tried to dismiss it but you know they've 867 00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:10,859 people have realized how ridiculous that 868 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:13,200 was so 869 00:40:18,590 --> 00:40:16,410 you have to you have to at least explain 870 00:40:23,410 --> 00:40:18,600 how the brain got to be the way it is 871 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:23,420 and the fact that you have all of these 872 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:26,690 proclivities for language for 873 00:40:34,430 --> 00:40:31,770 recognizing kinship for recognizing some 874 00:40:36,410 --> 00:40:34,440 sort of supernatural dimensions a spirit 875 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:36,420 world you know the fact that they're 876 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:38,250 universal indicates that there's 877 00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:39,690 something in the structure of the brain 878 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:42,720 that opens up those windows if you like 879 00:40:48,020 --> 00:40:45,450 and it's basically opening the window 880 00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:48,030 but it's not saying you know what the 881 00:40:53,630 --> 00:40:49,980 content of the window is going to be or 882 00:40:56,330 --> 00:40:53,640 what what's actually out there so that 883 00:40:58,490 --> 00:40:56,340 is a whole nother question and something 884 00:41:01,190 --> 00:40:58,500 else that needs to be addressed by other 885 00:41:03,380 --> 00:41:01,200 means but at least is you got the 886 00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:03,390 structure in place to be able to deal 887 00:41:07,220 --> 00:41:05,430 with these things I'm with you and I 888 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:07,230 didn't I do totally appreciate where 889 00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:08,490 you're coming from and I want to get 890 00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:10,920 back to talking about your work but I do 891 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:14,250 have to digress again because it's the 892 00:41:18,890 --> 00:41:16,050 nature of this conversation and it's fun 893 00:41:21,380 --> 00:41:18,900 particularly because you are so open to 894 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:21,390 exploring this given your position which 895 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:23,970 is quite unique but if you've ever 896 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:26,610 investigated that near-death experience 897 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:30,330 science it's it's fascinating and it's 898 00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:33,210 really kind of a case closed for the for 899 00:41:38,030 --> 00:41:34,950 the all the brain stuff you're talking 900 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:38,040 about because now we have people that no 901 00:41:42,590 --> 00:41:39,330 matter whether you want to call them 902 00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:42,600 dead or not dead or in whatever state 903 00:41:50,540 --> 00:41:46,110 their brain is in a state that isn't 904 00:41:53,870 --> 00:41:50,550 supposed to support conscious memories 905 00:41:56,570 --> 00:41:53,880 or the creation of conscious experiences 906 00:41:59,930 --> 00:41:56,580 in any model we currently have of 907 00:42:03,440 --> 00:41:59,940 Neurology well let me play a clip for 908 00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:03,450 you from an interview I did with dr. 909 00:42:09,290 --> 00:42:05,070 Jeff long who is a radiation oncologist 910 00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:09,300 and then by way of that got interested 911 00:42:14,050 --> 00:42:11,820 in dear death experience but what I want 912 00:42:17,300 --> 00:42:14,060 to point out to you in the clip is that 913 00:42:20,060 --> 00:42:17,310 here we're talking about a brain state 914 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:20,070 that is not associated with what we 915 00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:22,650 normally associate with having a 916 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:25,080 conscious experience and yet they are 917 00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:26,970 having a conscious experience so 918 00:42:31,940 --> 00:42:29,730 just for fun let me play this and then 919 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:31,950 we can get back to saying what that 920 00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:35,130 might mean about extended consciousness 921 00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:37,110 in the spirit world is that okay to 922 00:42:41,810 --> 00:42:39,720 listen to this for a minute sure when 923 00:42:43,490 --> 00:42:41,820 you're under general anesthesia it 924 00:42:46,940 --> 00:42:43,500 should be impossible to have a lucid 925 00:42:48,710 --> 00:42:46,950 organized remembrance at that time in 926 00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:48,720 fact under anesthesia you're typically 927 00:42:52,730 --> 00:42:50,880 so far under with general anesthesia 928 00:42:54,740 --> 00:42:52,740 they often have to breathe for you I 929 00:42:57,650 --> 00:42:54,750 mean you're literally brain shut down to 930 00:42:59,780 --> 00:42:57,660 the level of the brainstem and at that 931 00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:59,790 point in time some people have a cardiac 932 00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:01,440 arrest their heart stops and of course 933 00:43:05,210 --> 00:43:02,940 that's very well documented 934 00:43:07,820 --> 00:43:05,220 they monitor people very carefully that 935 00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:07,830 are having general anesthesia so I have 936 00:43:11,780 --> 00:43:09,510 dozens and dozens of near-death 937 00:43:14,270 --> 00:43:11,790 experiences that occurred under general 938 00:43:16,820 --> 00:43:14,280 anesthesia and at this time it should be 939 00:43:19,340 --> 00:43:16,830 if you will doubly impossible to have a 940 00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:19,350 conscious remembrance and yet they do 941 00:43:24,170 --> 00:43:21,510 have near-death experiences at this time 942 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:24,180 and their typical near-death experiences 943 00:43:27,770 --> 00:43:26,370 they have the same elements and appear 944 00:43:29,630 --> 00:43:27,780 to have them in the same order as 945 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:29,640 near-death experiences occurring under 946 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:31,890 all other I cut that off they're under 947 00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:34,770 all other circumstances so you get the 948 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:37,670 general idea yes you're still completely 949 00:43:42,110 --> 00:43:40,050 valid what you're saying about our brain 950 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:42,120 and this close relationship we all know 951 00:43:47,090 --> 00:43:44,610 and experience between our brain and our 952 00:43:50,420 --> 00:43:47,100 consciousness but again we're at this 953 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:50,430 uncomfortable edge of where is this 954 00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:52,050 consciousness and how much of it is in 955 00:43:58,490 --> 00:43:54,720 our body and and how does that fit into 956 00:44:01,040 --> 00:43:58,500 this overall investigation that you've 957 00:44:03,530 --> 00:44:01,050 done in terms of how culture 958 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:03,540 incorporates that in yeah well I mean 959 00:44:08,570 --> 00:44:05,130 one of the interesting things about 960 00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:08,580 near-death experiences is that you know 961 00:44:15,050 --> 00:44:11,280 it's a it's an arguable insight or one 962 00:44:18,590 --> 00:44:15,060 of the very few situations where you can 963 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:18,600 say where you can try to use that as an 964 00:44:29,150 --> 00:44:24,050 insight into the nature of supernatural 965 00:44:31,660 --> 00:44:29,160 existences and consciousness you know 966 00:44:37,090 --> 00:44:31,670 surviving past 967 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:37,100 past individual biological life so that 968 00:44:45,250 --> 00:44:40,690 you know it's a really interesting field 969 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:45,260 but it also requires special ways of 970 00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:47,330 dealing with it and investigating it as 971 00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:50,720 dean radin pointed out you know some of 972 00:44:57,370 --> 00:44:55,040 the if precognition is is a features a 973 00:45:01,900 --> 00:44:57,380 lot of these things could be the result 974 00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:01,910 of precognition kinds of anticipation of 975 00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:06,110 what what's going to happen and so that 976 00:45:12,220 --> 00:45:08,780 opens up and another can of worms if you 977 00:45:14,110 --> 00:45:12,230 like well but I love it I love doing I 978 00:45:16,780 --> 00:45:14,120 respect the crap out of him and he is a 979 00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:16,790 true giant in not just the field of 980 00:45:21,730 --> 00:45:18,800 parapsychology but in science in general 981 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:21,740 and I think 23 or 50 years from now 982 00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:23,450 people are going to look back and go why 983 00:45:29,050 --> 00:45:26,000 did we not listen to this guy more but 984 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:29,060 at the same time I think that's just not 985 00:45:34,090 --> 00:45:31,850 a very good argument buy that argument 986 00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:34,100 then there's nothing that we should like 987 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:35,510 if you listen the interview I did with 988 00:45:40,420 --> 00:45:38,570 him well then why Dean would we even go 989 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:40,430 into the lab that you're going into and 990 00:45:46,270 --> 00:45:43,490 try and study or control anything if we 991 00:45:48,010 --> 00:45:46,280 want to appeal to the nature of things 992 00:45:50,110 --> 00:45:48,020 and the nature of our relationship to 993 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:50,120 time and consciousness you know it's all 994 00:45:56,350 --> 00:45:54,010 up for grabs then right so we have to 995 00:45:58,120 --> 00:45:56,360 but it's an argument you have to deal 996 00:46:01,000 --> 00:45:58,130 with you know I mean he raised the 997 00:46:03,490 --> 00:46:01,010 argument so you you know and good 998 00:46:06,910 --> 00:46:03,500 scientific procedures 999 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:06,920 you gotta bat it back and forth and it 1000 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:09,050 may not be a very good argument but you 1001 00:46:14,010 --> 00:46:10,930 know you have to come up with arguments 1002 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:14,020 too as to why it's not a good argument 1003 00:46:20,410 --> 00:46:16,850 right I'm just saying but the argument 1004 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:20,420 then completely undermines the entire 1005 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:23,450 scientific endeavor then I don't know 1006 00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:24,890 that it's much of an argument and that 1007 00:46:30,130 --> 00:46:27,110 does if you're saying we can no longer 1008 00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:30,140 rely on our controls we can no longer 1009 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:33,680 rely on any anything we measure then 1010 00:46:38,860 --> 00:46:36,890 yeah yeah there you can you could take 1011 00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:38,870 that argument but then you really don't 1012 00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:40,960 have much to do after that argument is 1013 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:43,280 maybe not 1014 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:45,410 at any rate that's that's off on another 1015 00:46:50,020 --> 00:46:48,290 tangent and yeah but I just want to 1016 00:46:53,290 --> 00:46:50,030 emphasize I think the near-death 1017 00:46:56,410 --> 00:46:53,300 experiences are one of the very few keys 1018 00:46:59,560 --> 00:46:56,420 that we have to try to understand what 1019 00:47:02,800 --> 00:46:59,570 these other dimensions this the universe 1020 00:47:05,470 --> 00:47:02,810 might really be like how it operates and 1021 00:47:08,260 --> 00:47:05,480 what the rules are from my experiences 1022 00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,270 there's my personal take it's not an 1023 00:47:13,660 --> 00:47:10,640 academic you know conclusion but just 1024 00:47:15,609 --> 00:47:13,670 sort of a personal observation is these 1025 00:47:19,390 --> 00:47:15,619 other dimensions seem to work in ways 1026 00:47:22,870 --> 00:47:19,400 that don't conform to normal 1027 00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:22,880 material existence here they they're not 1028 00:47:30,339 --> 00:47:26,960 amenable to experimentation or you know 1029 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:30,349 scientific proofs in the usual sense of 1030 00:47:34,930 --> 00:47:32,330 you know you set up the right conditions 1031 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:34,940 and this would happen that doesn't work 1032 00:47:39,940 --> 00:47:36,490 that way it seems to be much more 1033 00:47:42,690 --> 00:47:39,950 haphazard and sometimes it seems to me 1034 00:47:46,060 --> 00:47:42,700 almost like you know whatever whatever 1035 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:46,070 synchronicities there are tend to take 1036 00:47:53,380 --> 00:47:49,130 the form of jokes that the universe is 1037 00:47:57,060 --> 00:47:53,390 playing on us with information you know 1038 00:48:00,820 --> 00:47:57,070 like the other day just very recently 1039 00:48:03,730 --> 00:48:00,830 little little anecdote but I visited 1040 00:48:06,820 --> 00:48:03,740 somebody in Sweden an archaeologist and 1041 00:48:09,849 --> 00:48:06,830 I ten years ago 12 years ago whatever 1042 00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:09,859 was I haven't been in touch with him for 1043 00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:14,000 12 years and I needed a reference that 1044 00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:19,040 he had from his site and so I emailed 1045 00:48:23,859 --> 00:48:22,160 him just the other night asking him for 1046 00:48:26,650 --> 00:48:23,869 this reference said I haven't seen you 1047 00:48:29,380 --> 00:48:26,660 for 10 years I'm sorry but you know and 1048 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:29,390 and he emailed me right back within 1049 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:32,570 minutes saying this is very strange 1050 00:48:38,290 --> 00:48:35,810 I have on my desk a paper that I have 1051 00:48:40,210 --> 00:48:38,300 not looked at for 10 years because it's 1052 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:40,220 been buried in my desk and it's the 1053 00:48:47,170 --> 00:48:42,170 exact same paper that you were asking 1054 00:48:49,870 --> 00:48:47,180 about amazing and you know neither one 1055 00:48:51,970 --> 00:48:49,880 of us had it's thought about this or 1056 00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:51,980 looked at it for 10 years and within 1057 00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:55,280 minutes we heard you know dealing with 1058 00:49:00,310 --> 00:48:56,930 the same thing 1059 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:00,320 and you know it seems like it seems like 1060 00:49:06,100 --> 00:49:03,650 a joke you know being played and trying 1061 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:06,110 to explain how that would work why it 1062 00:49:09,970 --> 00:49:08,930 would work you know what's behind it is 1063 00:49:13,210 --> 00:49:09,980 just beyond me 1064 00:49:16,170 --> 00:49:13,220 I just how the causality involved if 1065 00:49:20,590 --> 00:49:16,180 there is anything you can call causality 1066 00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:20,600 it's just a bizarre world and yeah 1067 00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:22,250 that's fast that's awesome you know and 1068 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:25,310 I love the way you said it's like a joke 1069 00:49:31,060 --> 00:49:28,490 and then you said to try and explain it 1070 00:49:34,420 --> 00:49:31,070 and I thought to try and explain it 1071 00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:34,430 ruins the joke it's like it's like when 1072 00:49:38,170 --> 00:49:36,110 someone tells you a joke and you don't 1073 00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:38,180 get it then you go we'll wait here's you 1074 00:49:44,890 --> 00:49:41,350 know that there's no longer a joke there 1075 00:49:49,060 --> 00:49:44,900 but you gotta wonder you know what's 1076 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:49,070 going on here I mean it's our nature 1077 00:49:54,190 --> 00:49:51,290 just to wonder how how in the world did 1078 00:49:58,300 --> 00:49:56,770 you know dr. Hayden uh this has been 1079 00:50:01,150 --> 00:49:58,310 been wonderful and again I appreciate 1080 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:01,160 the openness since one of the original 1081 00:50:08,710 --> 00:50:04,610 reasons I contacted you was to get your 1082 00:50:11,230 --> 00:50:08,720 opinion on the nature of evil for lack 1083 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:11,240 of a better way of putting that what are 1084 00:50:17,620 --> 00:50:14,330 some of your thoughts about the nature 1085 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:17,630 of evil both from a practical I'm gonna 1086 00:50:22,420 --> 00:50:19,850 get er done get what I want kind of 1087 00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:22,430 thing that we all understand and that 1088 00:50:29,230 --> 00:50:25,280 may be approaching more of this murky 1089 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:29,240 middle ground of I'm being guided by 1090 00:50:35,170 --> 00:50:33,410 some pretty the nevolin forces which is 1091 00:50:37,330 --> 00:50:35,180 is out there I mean people are saying 1092 00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:37,340 that's why I'm doing it or that's what 1093 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:40,310 that's who I'm surveying or yeah you 1094 00:50:44,620 --> 00:50:42,170 certainly get that in secret societies 1095 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:44,630 and they some of them were really 1096 00:50:51,310 --> 00:50:48,170 predatory you know and with human 1097 00:50:55,930 --> 00:50:51,320 sacrifices and cannibalism and the whole 1098 00:50:58,660 --> 00:50:55,940 stick there's one one analogy I make is 1099 00:51:02,470 --> 00:50:58,670 within at one particular African secret 1100 00:51:04,420 --> 00:51:02,480 society where in order to enter into 1101 00:51:08,140 --> 00:51:04,430 some of the upper ranks you had to kill 1102 00:51:10,420 --> 00:51:08,150 and eat your eldest son so you know to 1103 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:10,430 me that smacks of Star Wars 1104 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:16,010 you know extreme gang kind of situations 1105 00:51:21,339 --> 00:51:18,530 but to get back to your point about evil 1106 00:51:25,210 --> 00:51:21,349 or question about evil you know you go 1107 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:25,220 back to most traditional societies at 1108 00:51:29,559 --> 00:51:27,050 the tribal level and hunting and 1109 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:29,569 gathering level they didn't have concept 1110 00:51:36,609 --> 00:51:32,290 of evil and that was not part of the 1111 00:51:39,870 --> 00:51:36,619 conceptual universe there were spirits 1112 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:39,880 and people that could do you harm 1113 00:51:45,940 --> 00:51:43,970 whether intentionally or not usually you 1114 00:51:47,380 --> 00:51:45,950 know not necessarily intentionally but 1115 00:51:50,099 --> 00:51:47,390 you know there were definitely people 1116 00:51:54,420 --> 00:51:50,109 that were harmful in those societies 1117 00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:54,430 there's one account of Inuit or Eskimo 1118 00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:57,440 shaman that went went on a killing 1119 00:52:03,190 --> 00:51:59,839 rampage because he couldn't marry the 1120 00:52:06,490 --> 00:52:03,200 person he wanted to and so he killed 1121 00:52:08,910 --> 00:52:06,500 their entire family etc so is that evil 1122 00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:08,920 or is it just a really selfish you know 1123 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:12,880 obnoxious bastard you know to me that 1124 00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:14,690 somebody who does 1125 00:52:21,309 --> 00:52:18,559 you know harm like Psychopaths that 1126 00:52:23,589 --> 00:52:21,319 would qualify and my definition is 1127 00:52:26,890 --> 00:52:23,599 somebody that's evil you know I don't 1128 00:52:30,670 --> 00:52:26,900 adhere to this concept of evil is being 1129 00:52:33,490 --> 00:52:30,680 promoted by malevolent forces that are 1130 00:52:37,569 --> 00:52:33,500 conjured up by secret societies or by 1131 00:52:42,250 --> 00:52:37,579 dualistic religions like Christianity or 1132 00:52:45,789 --> 00:52:42,260 Islam or Zoroastrianism 1133 00:52:49,589 --> 00:52:45,799 that's all constructive you know these 1134 00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:49,599 secret society kinds of institutions for 1135 00:52:58,210 --> 00:52:52,690 having somebody to beat on some evil 1136 00:52:59,890 --> 00:52:58,220 evil force that you have to combat your 1137 00:53:02,380 --> 00:52:59,900 from let me interject because I want to 1138 00:53:04,780 --> 00:53:02,390 get this I'm gonna get your opinion on 1139 00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:04,790 this really in the more broad sense Ted 1140 00:53:08,859 --> 00:53:07,250 Bundy is back in the headlines they're 1141 00:53:11,859 --> 00:53:08,869 doing this big movie and everyone's 1142 00:53:13,569 --> 00:53:11,869 excited about it and I know like my kids 1143 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:13,579 are excited about and I'm like they're 1144 00:53:17,319 --> 00:53:15,530 teenagers you know why are you why are 1145 00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:17,329 we glorify this but that's kind of 1146 00:53:23,260 --> 00:53:20,720 another issue right the secret story and 1147 00:53:24,349 --> 00:53:23,270 Ted Bundy if you really dig into it in a 1148 00:53:27,470 --> 00:53:24,359 way that a lot of pee 1149 00:53:29,930 --> 00:53:27,480 don't like to acknowledge his satanic 1150 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:29,940 worship again so he doesn't start with 1151 00:53:35,269 --> 00:53:33,450 satanic worship but he whatever is drawn 1152 00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:35,279 into this I don't want to say a 1153 00:53:39,470 --> 00:53:36,660 lifestyle but he's gone into these 1154 00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:39,480 horrible acts and then he meets other 1155 00:53:44,269 --> 00:53:41,730 folks who are going yeah you know I'm 1156 00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:44,279 connected with these spiritual forces 1157 00:53:49,489 --> 00:53:47,609 and Ted's like hey great sounds cool I 1158 00:53:52,039 --> 00:53:49,499 have the voices inside my head and that 1159 00:53:54,890 --> 00:53:52,049 seems to be consistent with where I'm at 1160 00:53:59,479 --> 00:53:54,900 and he is now trying to make this 1161 00:54:02,150 --> 00:53:59,489 connection with this man Evelyn I'm 1162 00:54:05,089 --> 00:54:02,160 buddies buying into a system that he 1163 00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:05,099 feels is going to be able to let him do 1164 00:54:10,609 --> 00:54:07,529 what he wants to do and so in that 1165 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:10,619 system that conceptual system is really 1166 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:12,890 a product of secret societies and 1167 00:54:17,329 --> 00:54:15,210 institutionalized religions it's not it 1168 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:17,339 didn't exist before that unless there's 1169 00:54:23,029 --> 00:54:20,970 a reality to it right well that's an 1170 00:54:27,039 --> 00:54:23,039 open question is it one of our 1171 00:54:30,349 --> 00:54:27,049 constructs just like you know these the 1172 00:54:32,749 --> 00:54:30,359 another self-serving construct of secret 1173 00:54:35,660 --> 00:54:32,759 societies or is there any reality to it 1174 00:54:37,819 --> 00:54:35,670 and that is an open question agreed and 1175 00:54:39,380 --> 00:54:37,829 and I think that's the jumping off point 1176 00:54:41,390 --> 00:54:39,390 for me it's like with the near-death 1177 00:54:43,549 --> 00:54:41,400 experience you know we're both in 1178 00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:43,559 agreement that that kind of takes us in 1179 00:54:48,979 --> 00:54:46,160 a different place because we're using 1180 00:54:51,049 --> 00:54:48,989 scientific methods the best we can but 1181 00:54:53,180 --> 00:54:51,059 then we're reaching as we both said this 1182 00:54:55,970 --> 00:54:53,190 kind of jumping off into the great 1183 00:54:57,650 --> 00:54:55,980 unknown where we can't penetrate it but 1184 00:55:00,979 --> 00:54:57,660 certainly the accounts that we're 1185 00:55:03,259 --> 00:55:00,989 getting back do suggest this hierarchy 1186 00:55:05,930 --> 00:55:03,269 of this extended realm and it doesn't 1187 00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:05,940 just extend upwards it extends downwards 1188 00:55:11,779 --> 00:55:09,690 and I'm always it's opt kind of gone I 1189 00:55:14,989 --> 00:55:11,789 go by the that what seems to make 1190 00:55:17,180 --> 00:55:14,999 logical sense to me is the as above so 1191 00:55:20,479 --> 00:55:17,190 below as below so above I mean you don't 1192 00:55:23,269 --> 00:55:20,489 have to look very far to see in this 1193 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:23,279 existence people who do horrible things 1194 00:55:27,799 --> 00:55:25,650 for no apparent reason other than that 1195 00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:27,809 it gets them some kind of gratification 1196 00:55:32,599 --> 00:55:30,420 and this is your work this is your work 1197 00:55:35,479 --> 00:55:32,609 this is exactly what you've studied I 1198 00:55:37,730 --> 00:55:35,489 just that's I just don't know it just 1199 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:37,740 seems to mean a quite a knack 1200 00:55:42,140 --> 00:55:40,050 an easy extension if we say 1201 00:55:44,510 --> 00:55:42,150 consciousness extends beyond bodily 1202 00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:44,520 death then we might have to be open to 1203 00:55:49,940 --> 00:55:46,710 the possibility that that goes on in 1204 00:55:53,870 --> 00:55:49,950 those that's is certainly a possibility 1205 00:55:56,330 --> 00:55:53,880 yeah so I mean if if that's a factor and 1206 00:55:59,390 --> 00:55:56,340 I've played with that in my you know 1207 00:56:01,550 --> 00:55:59,400 those ideas and my own experiences as 1208 00:56:06,859 --> 00:56:01,560 well and you know it could be that it's 1209 00:56:11,230 --> 00:56:06,869 a an aspect of the the spirit realms if 1210 00:56:14,330 --> 00:56:11,240 you like that has evolved together with 1211 00:56:17,150 --> 00:56:14,340 institutional religions Brian have you 1212 00:56:19,730 --> 00:56:17,160 had any experiences in the field because 1213 00:56:22,490 --> 00:56:19,740 we should remind people this is a guy 1214 00:56:25,490 --> 00:56:22,500 we're talking to today who was in the 1215 00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:25,500 field for years and years doing the work 1216 00:56:30,350 --> 00:56:28,170 with studying with indigenous people 1217 00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:30,360 also studying sites where they were 1218 00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:32,910 doing archaeological digs so you're like 1219 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:36,240 a real a real anthropologist were there 1220 00:56:41,150 --> 00:56:38,490 any experiences in the field that really 1221 00:56:44,750 --> 00:56:41,160 just set you back with regard to some of 1222 00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:44,760 this stuff well I I tried to do some 1223 00:56:51,140 --> 00:56:47,490 meditations at Chichen itzá and actually 1224 00:56:54,770 --> 00:56:51,150 wrote it up in a for a local publication 1225 00:56:58,280 --> 00:56:54,780 at one point and so I went up to the 1226 00:57:01,400 --> 00:56:58,290 temple of my honor in Chichen itzá at 1227 00:57:04,790 --> 00:57:01,410 night under the full moon and did some 1228 00:57:09,730 --> 00:57:04,800 meditation up there and yeah I had a 1229 00:57:13,070 --> 00:57:09,740 very powerful experience of certainly 1230 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:13,080 presence of one of the former priest 1231 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:16,170 there that had sort of fed off the lives 1232 00:57:24,740 --> 00:57:19,410 of other people and I felt that he was 1233 00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:24,750 still there and was still very actively 1234 00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:27,359 engaged in the same kinds of things even 1235 00:57:34,849 --> 00:57:30,690 though he was you know just basically a 1236 00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:34,859 spirit presence at the time so that's 1237 00:57:38,570 --> 00:57:37,050 probably the most significant thing 1238 00:57:42,170 --> 00:57:38,580 that's happened to me in the field 1239 00:57:44,750 --> 00:57:42,180 that's pretty significant hey it's it's 1240 00:57:47,420 --> 00:57:44,760 awesome so so Brian again our guest has 1241 00:57:49,270 --> 00:57:47,430 been dr. Brian Hayden archaeologist 1242 00:57:51,530 --> 00:57:49,280 formerly of Simon Fraser University 1243 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:51,540 where he retired from FFA 1244 00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:53,010 distinguished career and has written 1245 00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:54,690 some amazing books one of the ones we 1246 00:58:01,280 --> 00:57:58,050 talked about was shaman sorcerers and 1247 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:01,290 Saints the prehistory of religion Brian 1248 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:03,930 what are you up to nowadays it sounds 1249 00:58:08,210 --> 00:58:05,490 like from the way that you said you're 1250 00:58:10,730 --> 00:58:08,220 just in contact with a colleague in 1251 00:58:13,790 --> 00:58:10,740 Sweden that you are not quote-unquote 1252 00:58:18,650 --> 00:58:13,800 retired you're still engaged in this 1253 00:58:21,830 --> 00:58:18,660 work yeah I've done some work in some 1254 00:58:24,110 --> 00:58:21,840 middle Paleolithic caves on that at 1255 00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:24,120 Bruni kal in France where they've 1256 00:58:29,690 --> 00:58:26,130 discovered the earliest ritual 1257 00:58:36,850 --> 00:58:29,700 structures on records basically going 1258 00:58:39,790 --> 00:58:36,860 back almost 170,000 years ago and I've 1259 00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:39,800 just been trying to tie up some loose 1260 00:58:44,450 --> 00:58:42,570 loose projects that never got finished 1261 00:58:48,140 --> 00:58:44,460 when dealing with storage and other 1262 00:58:50,930 --> 00:58:48,150 dealing with counting so yeah so more 1263 00:58:53,300 --> 00:58:50,940 more pedestrian kind of archaeology but 1264 00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:53,310 yeah well except for Bruni kelp or any 1265 00:58:57,440 --> 00:58:55,170 kales really exciting well and I think 1266 00:58:59,240 --> 00:58:57,450 it also might get back to the very first 1267 00:59:01,370 --> 00:58:59,250 point that you made and now that we've 1268 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:01,380 come full circle I can have any very 1269 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:04,410 greater appreciation for your kind of 1270 00:59:08,690 --> 00:59:07,050 shutup and excavate mentality because 1271 00:59:11,210 --> 00:59:08,700 there's value in that right I mean 1272 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:11,220 somebody has to gather the data and 1273 00:59:15,770 --> 00:59:13,130 interpret it the best way they can 1274 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:15,780 inside of certain parameters and that 1275 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:17,570 moves the ball forward in a way that 1276 00:59:24,290 --> 00:59:20,010 speculating about how the spirits work 1277 00:59:26,990 --> 00:59:24,300 cannot right yeah yeah well it's been 1278 00:59:29,030 --> 00:59:27,000 absolutely fantastic having you on and I 1279 00:59:30,950 --> 00:59:29,040 thank you so much for joining me best of 1280 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:30,960 luck to you with all that work well 1281 00:59:34,550 --> 00:59:32,250 thank you yeah it's been a pleasure 1282 00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:34,560 thanks again to dr. Hayden for joining 1283 00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:36,720 me today on skeptic oh the one question 1284 00:59:41,630 --> 00:59:38,610 I'd have to tee up from this interview 1285 00:59:43,850 --> 00:59:41,640 is one that I've asked is one that I've 1286 00:59:45,830 --> 00:59:43,860 asked several times but I think we can 1287 00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:45,840 return to it with a different spin this 1288 00:59:52,690 --> 00:59:50,250 time what is the nature of evil and what 1289 00:59:56,210 --> 00:59:52,700 do you make of dr. Hayden's 1290 00:59:59,630 --> 00:59:56,220 anthropological sociological self 1291 01:00:01,400 --> 00:59:59,640 aggrandizement perspective I was about 1292 01:00:04,430 --> 01:00:01,410 to jump in there with my opinion but I 1293 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:04,440 will resist the urge and wait for you to 1294 01:00:07,340 --> 01:00:04,770 tell 1295 01:00:09,290 --> 01:00:07,350 me what'd you think I'd love to hear 1296 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:09,300 from you on The Skeptical forum I love 1297 01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:11,010 meeting with people there it seems like 1298 01:00:14,210 --> 01:00:13,050 we can engage in deeper conversations 1299 01:00:16,220 --> 01:00:14,220 but if you want to try and track me down 1300 01:00:18,650 --> 01:00:16,230 on Facebook or leave a comment on the 1301 01:00:20,540 --> 01:00:18,660 YouTube video that's fine as well and of 1302 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:20,550 course we're always free to email me the 1303 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:22,530 important thing is that if this 1304 01:00:27,140 --> 01:00:24,810 information is meaningful to you if it 1305 01:00:28,940 --> 01:00:27,150 connects with you hey follow up on that 1306 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:28,950 there's a reason for that connect with 1307 01:00:33,260 --> 01:00:31,170 me let's start a conversation I love 1308 01:00:35,390 --> 01:00:33,270 meeting people who listen to skeptic oh 1309 01:00:37,790 --> 01:00:35,400 so many of you are so brilliant and have 1310 01:00:39,710 --> 01:00:37,800 contributed to my overall understanding 1311 01:00:42,170 --> 01:00:39,720 of these big-picture questions that I'm 1312 01:00:44,750 --> 01:00:42,180 trying to answer for myself so I'm so 1313 01:00:48,050 --> 01:00:44,760 grateful to you and in that spirit I ask 1314 01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:48,060 you to expand this circle so that I can 1315 01:00:52,550 --> 01:00:50,400 learn even more from more of you of 1316 01:00:56,810 --> 01:00:52,560 course along those lines check out the 1317 01:00:59,060 --> 01:00:56,820 skeptical website ske PT Iko com all of 1318 01:01:01,040 --> 01:00:59,070 them are they're available for free 1319 01:01:03,980 --> 01:01:01,050 download so please take advantage of 1320 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:03,990 that and until next time take care and 1321 01:01:12,690 --> 01:01:06,170 bye for now 1322 01:01:12,700 --> 01:01:20,130 [Music] 1323 01:01:24,790 --> 01:01:22,930 so thanks for watching this video if it 1324 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:24,800 wasn't really a video but just an audio 1325 01:01:28,930 --> 01:01:27,410 stored as a video well I apologize but 1326 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:28,940 there's more videos out there as well 1327 01:01:32,740 --> 01:01:30,890 but please check out the skeptic Oh 1328 01:01:34,089 --> 01:01:32,750 website you can see it here we cover a 1329 01:01:36,910 --> 01:01:34,099 lot of different stuff you might be 1330 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:36,920 interested in relating to controversial 1331 01:01:42,940 --> 01:01:40,250 science and spirituality a lot of shows 1332 01:01:45,790 --> 01:01:42,950 up there over 350 of them are so all 1333 01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:45,800 free all available for downloads so do